Yesterday's discussion was so interesting. Thank you again everyone.
It is relevant to me because I came out of a relationship recently. I too find it very hard to stand my ground, to be assertive, unless I am pushed to the limit, which I was. I was hurt and became angry but I was this time able to speak it and to set clear boundaries, which in effect was tantamount to ending it all. An ultimatum I suppose really.
For once I was actually able to put my feelings into words - I have a tendency just to get tongue tied or burst into tears on these occasions.
I can't say either that I am feeling particularly open hearted towards him at the moment, which I know we are supposed to ... I'm afraid to go there - I still feel very raw. I'm hoping the passage of time will help ...
Anyway,it's good to air it, and thank you again Ruth and everyone for raising the subject. I find anger so very difficult and generally bend myself out of shape to avoid any kind of confronttion.
(((Mary))) Holding you in thought and with warmth...
I, too, went into a short dalliance in the Winter, and was most surprised at all the "stuff" that emerged in me ~ it's as if the intervening years of solitude have done nothing to increase my relationship exponential. For all the right reasons, I let go of it, and then kept emailing until he decided he didn't want to anymore. I sent him a CD of poetry I'd written while with him, about half an hour of readings, and he said it made him cry. Oh dear! But he was seeing another woman, and had an alternative sexual lifestyle that I couldn't possibly participate in. Still, I realized that I never actually 'end' relationships, I try to shift them to another level, a platonic one, and hand hold for awhile but that doesn't work for the man, or at least it hasn't in many cases.
That ended in Febuary, and I'm just beginning to feel like the grieving is lifting, like I'm coming back into myself, like I'm me again.
Being determined to work on this difficult area of my life, I am still open and perhaps looking in an oblique way.
It takes time to understand what happened, and time to find the rawness healing. You are richer for loving this man, and that knowing will come. Even if he overstepped and you let him, you'll forgive yourself.
Jean, sometimes I think we may have fairly parallel mother stories. When you write of your pain, I feel similar feelings so strongly. For a child to turn from a parent, oh, I know the parent was abusive. In hospital when my Dad was dying I saw other aged parents and the adult children of some were full of warmth and affection and caring and love and concern and other children of other dying parents were distant, sitting in silence, almost no communication. I knew that as the parent had treated the child, thus they were responded to. It was an eye-opening lesson.
When a child has been abused, it's in the body. There's a sense of distance because of the need for protection.
You made a huge decision to be healthy and loving and kind and generous. I have nothing but admiration and love for you.
Brenda:thanks so much. I had a feeling you would understand ... at the moment I need to keep the boundaries between him and me firmly in place.
I do want to make the point too that I am not saying that setting boundaries and being assertive/angry means that you are going to break up with a partner!
This was the case with me in this instance but only because, in spite of my wishful thinking, it was built on fairly unsafe foundations anyway. So better to know and move on.
And that, for me, is a good and necessary lesson learned, i.e. doesn't do to accept unacceptable behaviour out of fear of challenging it.
Movement and growth is always possible, I know that. Being present, meditating, is hard sometimes now but not always, and life is OK, albeit uncertain ... There are very good things as well as painful ones ...
Wherever did the prevalent public perception that meditation is about being calm and detached come from, I wonder? Clearly all our experience is that it's the opposite, something that nudges us towards being present to difficult feelings and relationships and not shutting down. I guess the tendency in our society to equate spaciousness with detachment is telling.
This is fascinating, helpful, surprising. I never thought an online group would be talking about this stuff! I was raised in a family where conflict was considered bad and harmony always sought. The rules were "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" and "don't let the sun go down on your anger" -- impossible, but still what we strived for. My husband was raised in a combative atmosphere where people said mean, abusive things to each other all the time and held grudges forever; saying you were sorry was considered weakness and defeat. He has made a conscious decision to distance himself from that early in his life and has tried very hard to learn different, gentler ways of being in relationship. For the most part, that's been successful, and I have learned from him that conflict is normal and can be positive. I've learned how to feel and admit my own anger, and to try to express it (or its message) in a positive way rather than repressing my feelings or feeling guilty - but that's also lifelong work for me. It's just that sometimes we get stretched toward the original two poles, to a point where things do get "unacceptable". In a committed marriage it's very hard to give ultimatums and I think it's very wrong to threaten to leave, for example, if you don't mean it. But allowing unacceptable behavior enables it, so you have to evolve ways to set limits, yet stay in relationship. We're working on communicating better - after 27 years, would you think we still needed to work on it? Yes! I am trying to be very firm about my limits and communicate them clearly, and to remove myself from the scene when anger gets out of control. I've made it clear that I am willing to discuss ANYthing if it's presented in a rational way, and that I don't expect either of us not to get angry - I certainly do! It's a question of how destructive a weapon you allow your anger to become - and how to turn away from that and allow the energy that anger really is to take another form. That's not easy work at all.
We get into problems when we're both stretched and stressed. It's when we're most vulnerable, the most needy of understanding and love, and the time when we expect the most - and communicate the worst, probably!
Just a quick "hi" via dial-up here at my parents'... I love the distinction that Ruth (I think) made yesterday between walking away from IT versus walking away from HIM. Sometimes trying to help someone deal with their emotional crap ISN'T helpful: the only way they'll deal with it is if they see (blatantly) the effect of NOT dealing with it. One of the things I appreciate about Buddhism is its emphasis on cause & effect: if someone sees how their anger or other powerful emotions alienate & hurt people important to them, THEN they have an opportunity to wake up & change.
Jean, I think "the prevalent public perception that meditation is about being calm and detached" is partly wishful thinking: really, WHY would someone do something as boring as MEDITATE if there weren't something that made it worth it?
I also think many people have READ about meditation, but very few people have actually DONE (and persevered at) it. So if you read Zen Masters & other veteran practitioners talk about the fruits of long-term meditation...well, you're going to remember the good stuff, not the blood, sweat, and tears it took to get there.
Lorianne, I am presently thinking of short daily meditation as similar to practicing scales - it keeps you in there for when it's time to play the symphony. Seems like we're all playing symphonies right now.
stockhausen! tee hee! thank God i can play bach every morning. It is possibly my onky harmonious moment!
Thank you everyone for your honesty. I am learning so much, and above all, that I am not alone. It is so heartening beth that you are similarly polarised in where you come from, but unified in where you want to go. For me this is the key of growing up. if I do it before I die, it will have been a good life.
"Where did the love go?" I asked. it was so good to ask, and to know that we are committed to finsding it again. that's a journey à deux.
Sometimes I look back on my single days and know they were easier than this. richer? I don't know. I don't think so - just different lessons I guess.
12 Comments:
Yesterday's discussion was so interesting. Thank you again everyone.
It is relevant to me because I came out of a relationship recently. I too find it very hard to stand my ground, to be assertive, unless I am pushed to the limit, which I was. I was hurt and became angry but I was this time able to speak it and to set clear boundaries, which in effect was tantamount to ending it all. An ultimatum I suppose really.
For once I was actually able to put my feelings into words - I have a tendency just to get tongue tied or burst into tears on these occasions.
I can't say either that I am feeling particularly open hearted towards him at the moment, which I know we are supposed to ... I'm afraid to go there - I still feel very raw. I'm hoping the passage of time will help ...
Anyway,it's good to air it, and thank you again Ruth and everyone for raising the subject. I find anger so very difficult and generally bend myself out of shape to avoid any kind of confronttion.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
(((Mary))) Holding you in thought and with warmth...
I, too, went into a short dalliance in the Winter, and was most surprised at all the "stuff" that emerged in me ~ it's as if the intervening years of solitude have done nothing to increase my relationship exponential. For all the right reasons, I let go of it, and then kept emailing until he decided he didn't want to anymore. I sent him a CD of poetry I'd written while with him, about half an hour of readings, and he said it made him cry. Oh dear! But he was seeing another woman, and had an alternative sexual lifestyle that I couldn't possibly participate in. Still, I realized that I never actually 'end' relationships, I try to shift them to another level, a platonic one, and hand hold for awhile but that doesn't work for the man, or at least it hasn't in many cases.
That ended in Febuary, and I'm just beginning to feel like the grieving is lifting, like I'm coming back into myself, like I'm me again.
Being determined to work on this difficult area of my life, I am still open and perhaps looking in an oblique way.
It takes time to understand what happened, and time to find the rawness healing. You are richer for loving this man, and that knowing will come. Even if he overstepped and you let him, you'll forgive yourself.
I wish gentleness reigned!
Jean, sometimes I think we may have fairly parallel mother stories. When you write of your pain, I feel similar feelings so strongly. For a child to turn from a parent, oh, I know the parent was abusive. In hospital when my Dad was dying I saw other aged parents and the adult children of some were full of warmth and affection and caring and love and concern and other children of other dying parents were distant, sitting in silence, almost no communication. I knew that as the parent had treated the child, thus they were responded to. It was an eye-opening lesson.
When a child has been abused, it's in the body. There's a sense of distance because of the need for protection.
You made a huge decision to be healthy and loving and kind and generous. I have nothing but admiration and love for you.
It was the right decision.
Sorry, me above.
Brenda:thanks so much. I had a feeling you would understand ... at the moment I need to keep the boundaries between him and me firmly in place.
I do want to make the point too that I am not saying that setting boundaries and being assertive/angry means that you are going to break up with a partner!
This was the case with me in this instance but only because, in spite of my wishful thinking, it was built on fairly unsafe foundations anyway. So better to know and move on.
And that, for me, is a good and necessary lesson learned, i.e. doesn't do to accept unacceptable behaviour out of fear of challenging it.
Movement and growth is always possible, I know that. Being present, meditating, is hard sometimes now but not always, and life is OK, albeit uncertain ... There are very good things as well as painful ones ...
Wherever did the prevalent public perception that meditation is about being calm and detached come from, I wonder? Clearly all our experience is that it's the opposite, something that nudges us towards being present to difficult feelings and relationships and not shutting down. I guess the tendency in our society to equate spaciousness with detachment is telling.
Lots of love all round. Lots.
This is fascinating, helpful, surprising. I never thought an online group would be talking about this stuff! I was raised in a family where conflict was considered bad and harmony always sought. The rules were "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" and "don't let the sun go down on your anger" -- impossible, but still what we strived for. My husband was raised in a combative atmosphere where people said mean, abusive things to each other all the time and held grudges forever; saying you were sorry was considered weakness and defeat. He has made a conscious decision to distance himself from that early in his life and has tried very hard to learn different, gentler ways of being in relationship. For the most part, that's been successful, and I have learned from him that conflict is normal and can be positive. I've learned how to feel and admit my own anger, and to try to express it (or its message) in a positive way rather than repressing my feelings or feeling guilty - but that's also lifelong work for me. It's just that sometimes we get stretched toward the original two poles, to a point where things do get "unacceptable". In a committed marriage it's very hard to give ultimatums and I think it's very wrong to threaten to leave, for example, if you don't mean it. But allowing unacceptable behavior enables it, so you have to evolve ways to set limits, yet stay in relationship. We're working on communicating better - after 27 years, would you think we still needed to work on it? Yes! I am trying to be very firm about my limits and communicate them clearly, and to remove myself from the scene when anger gets out of control. I've made it clear that I am willing to discuss ANYthing if it's presented in a rational way, and that I don't expect either of us not to get angry - I certainly do! It's a question of how destructive a weapon you allow your anger to become - and how to turn away from that and allow the energy that anger really is to take another form. That's not easy work at all.
We get into problems when we're both stretched and stressed. It's when we're most vulnerable, the most needy of understanding and love, and the time when we expect the most - and communicate the worst, probably!
Just a quick "hi" via dial-up here at my parents'... I love the distinction that Ruth (I think) made yesterday between walking away from IT versus walking away from HIM. Sometimes trying to help someone deal with their emotional crap ISN'T helpful: the only way they'll deal with it is if they see (blatantly) the effect of NOT dealing with it. One of the things I appreciate about Buddhism is its emphasis on cause & effect: if someone sees how their anger or other powerful emotions alienate & hurt people important to them, THEN they have an opportunity to wake up & change.
Jean, I think "the prevalent public perception that meditation is about being calm and detached" is partly wishful thinking: really, WHY would someone do something as boring as MEDITATE if there weren't something that made it worth it?
I also think many people have READ about meditation, but very few people have actually DONE (and persevered at) it. So if you read Zen Masters & other veteran practitioners talk about the fruits of long-term meditation...well, you're going to remember the good stuff, not the blood, sweat, and tears it took to get there.
Beth, that was amazing, thank you.
Lorianne, I am presently thinking of short daily meditation as similar to practicing scales - it keeps you in there for when it's time to play the symphony. Seems like we're all playing symphonies right now.
:)
Oh, Brenda, I love that! And Lorianne, more words of wisdom.
Brenda, what a lovely image! I think mine is by Stockhausen or someone of that ilk.
stockhausen! tee hee! thank God i can play bach every morning. It is possibly my onky harmonious moment!
Thank you everyone for your honesty. I am learning so much, and above all, that I am not alone. It is so heartening beth that you are similarly polarised in where you come from, but unified in where you want to go. For me this is the key of growing up. if I do it before I die, it will have been a good life.
"Where did the love go?" I asked. it was so good to ask, and to know that we are committed to finsding it again. that's a journey à deux.
Sometimes I look back on my single days and know they were easier than this. richer? I don't know. I don't think so - just different lessons I guess.
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