Jean, I was just thinking how lovely and fresh your recent comments are, and inspiring. Sometimes, just as in any group, I guess we risk swirling around in our own gunk and fresh imput directly related to practice is very energising.
just sat properly for the first time in a while. interesting what a relife it is not to have to judge myself when thoughts come up. I must have been carrying a fair amount of judgement of late.
All your comments were really helpful yesterday. I really do feel that meditation practice is one of the most efficient roads to peace and if we cannot practice peace in our own home, where are we going to practice. I use j and I frankly as an example of things that I think we all ancounter everywhere, and so I hope it doesn't come accross as a whingey battered wife. i am just trying to really look at something it is all too easy to ignore. Brenda the phrase standing my ground hit home, and I have the image of standing on the ground breathing and full of compassion in the face of anger. It's a long shot but worth a go or two! I am holding your words through the day and observing...
No, of course what you say here doesn't give, to me at least, an impression of anything but bravely confronting the difficulty and suffering of most personalities and relationships.
Me too, seconding all the above, and thanking Brenda for her wise words yesterday.
All longterm relationships have difficulties. Even the ones that seem placid can mask all sorts of repressed emotions that are just as damaging as outward anger. And there's no ideal, is there? Or stasis. So we have to just keep working on them and on ourselves. I've often said that marriage is my monastery - I should write THAT book - because it is the most fertile ground for practice I've found in my life.
Catching up on comments. Thank you to everyone who has shared these past few days. Nothing rings as true as honest personal experience, and I really appreciate it all.
I went along to the Buddhist Centre for the lunchtime meditation session today. I start work again soon so I thought I'd better seize the moment.
We focussed on the loving kindness meditation, which I actually found easier to do today than normal. And I do seem to go "deeper" in my meditations when I am at the centre. Something to do with the energy of the place perhaps.... plus the lack of distraction.
My commitment became shallow when I was away these last few days. I meditated for my minimum 5 mins, but "perfunctory" would sum it up quite well. I want to get back to longer sessions on a regular basis. I realised today that I've missed it, both the "easy" and the "difficult" sessions. I've missed sitting.
I did want to say though, that while we do have to see that what someone else's anger brings up in us is our own to deal with, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't say "that's not acceptable" if it's not acceptable. Seconding what Brenda said. It's okay to lay down the law, say what the boundaries of what you're willing to put up with are.
I'm guessing Julian's a flare-up-fast-and-get-it-over-with guy, but even they (er, "we" I should say) can be trained to stay inside certain lines. & should be.
Hey, everyone. I'm checking in via dial-up from my parents' house in Ohio, where I'll be through the weekend. If nothing else, surfing via dial-up is a great opportunity for practice... :-)
Lots of good comments yesterday & today. Of course it's acceptable to say "This isn't acceptable," and I loved Brenda's statement of "I'm your wife & won't allow myself to be talked to that way" (or something like that).
The "gauge" I try to use is to think of how you'd allow the person to treat someone ELSE. If you saw someone yelling at a child, elder, or other vulnerable person, would you stand up and say "This is unacceptable." I think lots of us expect OURSELVES to put up with emotional abuse (let's call it what it is!) that we wouldn't tolerate if directed at someone else.
Patience is fine and good, but at a certain point patience becomes co-dependence & downright SUPPORT for inexcusable behavior. I can't think of any Buddhist scripture that says withstanding abuse is a virtue: if nothing else, I think a strong meditation practice helps you find the center to walk away from situations that you can't change.
Beth, I would LOVE for you to write a book on "the monasticism of marriage"! :-)
Very interesting discussions in the last couple days. I find myself seconding or thirding what others are saying here about lovingly drawn boundaries. Relationships are co-created. Which is a lovely, lovely thing when they are tended to with love and compassion, becoming more than any one person could ever think of to create.
As usual, I'm needing to repair commitments... on a regular basis. Sigh.
good discussions and listening with J tonight, partly thanks to all your support and the increasing courage to stand my ground peacefully and say how I feel. It's a new experience and changing a deep deep pattern in myself. Isn't this, after all, why we get married - do we not vow to confront this in ourselves and eachother and NOT walk away? i agree with lorraine about abuse and co-dependence. I have been playing that game all my life and now is my chance to walk away from IT without walking away from HIM. It's big stuff for me, and exciting.
very right dale. more on your experience if you can and if you dare. it is so helpful to hear what it's like on the other side! and also what, in that state, you need...?
I think the fact i sat today helped us both have a good and true discussion about where we are and where the respect and the love is.
I don't have any problems with anger; it's a very healthy emotional response often. But, ya know, there are pillows, made for sleeping on and punching. I have a whip of a temper, it flares up and dies fast; but I don't tend to attack people so much as feel sorry for myself & pull whoever into the internal drama of 'poor me.' Apologies are plentiful afterwards too.
It worked first with my son when he was about 13 or so, up close, looking right in his eyes, "Don't talk to me like that, I'm your mother." Did it matter if he went and trashed his room? Not really. He's so changed now, it's hard to imagine he went through a phase like that.
My daughter took to using a bed roll this Winter, it was great for punching and got a lot of anger out.
When my mother starts attacking and criticizing, and she can be vicious, I've learnt to say, 'You're criticizing me. I don't deserve this. If you continue to criticize me unfairly, I'll cut contact." She'll be castigating me for not getting re-married, or going on about my children, stuff like that. I've cut contact with her a number of times, usually lasting about 6 months but up to a year. Each time we have longer before she starts up again. Now it's been about a year and a half of relative peace and I am very grateful. This may seem a harsh way to deal with things, but better that than a complete breakdown of communication, and no contact at all.
There are a couple of times when I wish I'd invoked the importance and centrality of the relationship. Ah, well, there is always the future... :)
I don't get angry very often. Once or twice a year, I think. But when it happens it happens fast and I get *very* angry and I'm told it's quite scary. It also ordinarily goes away very rapidly.
Our big problem was that I didn't think of what I said when I was angry as meaning anything. I'm was just being angry. But Martha would take whatever I said at face-value and still be hurt and worrying about it later, months later, even years later. Early in our relationship I thought of that as her problem, that she just needed to learn to accept that people get angry and say stuff they don't mean. I thought it would probably be good for her to say some things she didn't mean. It kinda drove me nuts, that she *always* meant what she said. What kind of way to communicate is that?
But I gradually learned to see it as just our problem. Nobody's fault, but if I wanted us both to be happy I was going to have to learn not to say things that I didn't seriously mean. It took a lot of effort. And, since I didn't get a lot of practice with it, many years. But I think I'm pretty good about it now.
me too dale. thank you for this. i suppose in anger, just as in anywhere else right words and right actions still stand. I don't thing there is any excuse to shout at someone you love. It hurts. thank you for being so honest about this. We are really working on it. I so hope it can change. Alot of it is just a family pattern.
We should reread the book on destructive emotions by the dalai lama and daniel goldman. It is something that fascinates me. Obviously being able not to make anger wrong is one important thing but what you do with it entirely another.
This is really interesting, everyone, thank you. I don't get a lot of practice with this, as for a long time I have lived without close relationships. But on the one hand that doesn't absolve me from reflecting on why I found close relationships so painful that I allowed this to happen to my life. And on the other, I do still of course get angry occasionally. I went through a phase, I think, of feeling that expressing emotions - however nastily - was always better than not expressing them. Took a long time, and a knowledge of buddhist ideas I guess, to come around to thinking that what you say, even in anger, does matter and once you've said it you've given it a reality out there in the world. What Dale described is really the heart of working on relationship, I think. Whilst 'stepping back' and pausing before reacting is hugely important and makes a huge difference, I wouldn't ever mean to say that that replaces honest communication - you need both.
I'm noticing (since noticing my feelings is my practice at the moment) that while I'm typing this I feel very upset just thinking about it - even after all these years of not being in this situation.
So, thank you all for sharing what is so hard to share, to face up to, even to think about.
16 Comments:
Jean, I was just thinking how lovely and fresh your recent comments are, and inspiring. Sometimes, just as in any group, I guess we risk swirling around in our own gunk and fresh imput directly related to practice is very energising.
just sat properly for the first time in a while. interesting what a relife it is not to have to judge myself when thoughts come up. I must have been carrying a fair amount of judgement of late.
All your comments were really helpful yesterday. I really do feel that meditation practice is one of the most efficient roads to peace and if we cannot practice peace in our own home, where are we going to practice. I use j and I frankly as an example of things that I think we all ancounter everywhere, and so I hope it doesn't come accross as a whingey battered wife. i am just trying to really look at something it is all too easy to ignore. Brenda the phrase standing my ground hit home, and I have the image of standing on the ground breathing and full of compassion in the face of anger. It's a long shot but worth a go or two! I am holding your words through the day and observing...
Ruth, thanks.
No, of course what you say here doesn't give, to me at least, an impression of anything but bravely confronting the difficulty and suffering of most personalities and relationships.
Me too, seconding all the above, and thanking Brenda for her wise words yesterday.
All longterm relationships have difficulties. Even the ones that seem placid can mask all sorts of repressed emotions that are just as damaging as outward anger. And there's no ideal, is there? Or stasis. So we have to just keep working on them and on ourselves. I've often said that marriage is my monastery - I should write THAT book - because it is the most fertile ground for practice I've found in my life.
Catching up on comments. Thank you to everyone who has shared these past few days. Nothing rings as true as honest personal experience, and I really appreciate it all.
I went along to the Buddhist Centre for the lunchtime meditation session today. I start work again soon so I thought I'd better seize the moment.
We focussed on the loving kindness meditation, which I actually found easier to do today than normal. And I do seem to go "deeper" in my meditations when I am at the centre. Something to do with the energy of the place perhaps.... plus the lack of distraction.
My commitment became shallow when I was away these last few days. I meditated for my minimum 5 mins, but "perfunctory" would sum it up quite well. I want to get back to longer sessions on a regular basis. I realised today that I've missed it, both the "easy" and the "difficult" sessions. I've missed sitting.
I did want to say though, that while we do have to see that what someone else's anger brings up in us is our own to deal with, that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't say "that's not acceptable" if it's not acceptable. Seconding what Brenda said. It's okay to lay down the law, say what the boundaries of what you're willing to put up with are.
I'm guessing Julian's a flare-up-fast-and-get-it-over-with guy, but even they (er, "we" I should say) can be trained to stay inside certain lines. & should be.
Hey, everyone. I'm checking in via dial-up from my parents' house in Ohio, where I'll be through the weekend. If nothing else, surfing via dial-up is a great opportunity for practice... :-)
Lots of good comments yesterday & today. Of course it's acceptable to say "This isn't acceptable," and I loved Brenda's statement of "I'm your wife & won't allow myself to be talked to that way" (or something like that).
The "gauge" I try to use is to think of how you'd allow the person to treat someone ELSE. If you saw someone yelling at a child, elder, or other vulnerable person, would you stand up and say "This is unacceptable." I think lots of us expect OURSELVES to put up with emotional abuse (let's call it what it is!) that we wouldn't tolerate if directed at someone else.
Patience is fine and good, but at a certain point patience becomes co-dependence & downright SUPPORT for inexcusable behavior. I can't think of any Buddhist scripture that says withstanding abuse is a virtue: if nothing else, I think a strong meditation practice helps you find the center to walk away from situations that you can't change.
Beth, I would LOVE for you to write a book on "the monasticism of marriage"! :-)
Very interesting discussions in the last couple days. I find myself seconding or thirding what others are saying here about lovingly drawn boundaries. Relationships are co-created. Which is a lovely, lovely thing when they are tended to with love and compassion, becoming more than any one person could ever think of to create.
As usual, I'm needing to repair commitments... on a regular basis. Sigh.
And yes, Beth, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the "monasticism of marriage"! Hmmm.
good discussions and listening with J tonight, partly thanks to all your support and the increasing courage to stand my ground peacefully and say how I feel. It's a new experience and changing a deep deep pattern in myself. Isn't this, after all, why we get married - do we not vow to confront this in ourselves and eachother and NOT walk away? i agree with lorraine about abuse and co-dependence. I have been playing that game all my life and now is my chance to walk away from IT without walking away from HIM. It's big stuff for me, and exciting.
very right dale. more on your experience if you can and if you dare. it is so helpful to hear what it's like on the other side! and also what, in that state, you need...?
I think the fact i sat today helped us both have a good and true discussion about where we are and where the respect and the love is.
Thank you all.
and yes beth, write that book fast!
I don't have any problems with anger; it's a very healthy emotional response often. But, ya know, there are pillows, made for sleeping on and punching. I have a whip of a temper, it flares up and dies fast; but I don't tend to attack people so much as feel sorry for myself & pull whoever into the internal drama of 'poor me.' Apologies are plentiful afterwards too.
It worked first with my son when he was about 13 or so, up close, looking right in his eyes, "Don't talk to me like that, I'm your mother." Did it matter if he went and trashed his room? Not really. He's so changed now, it's hard to imagine he went through a phase like that.
My daughter took to using a bed roll this Winter, it was great for punching and got a lot of anger out.
When my mother starts attacking and criticizing, and she can be vicious, I've learnt to say, 'You're criticizing me. I don't deserve this. If you continue to criticize me unfairly, I'll cut contact." She'll be castigating me for not getting re-married, or going on about my children, stuff like that. I've cut contact with her a number of times, usually lasting about 6 months but up to a year. Each time we have longer before she starts up again. Now it's been about a year and a half of relative peace and I am very grateful. This may seem a harsh way to deal with things, but better that than a complete breakdown of communication, and no contact at all.
There are a couple of times when I wish I'd invoked the importance and centrality of the relationship. Ah, well, there is always the future... :)
Argh. I'll try.
I don't get angry very often. Once or twice a year, I think. But when it happens it happens fast and I get *very* angry and I'm told it's quite scary. It also ordinarily goes away very rapidly.
Our big problem was that I didn't think of what I said when I was angry as meaning anything. I'm was just being angry. But Martha would take whatever I said at face-value and still be hurt and worrying about it later, months later, even years later. Early in our relationship I thought of that as her problem, that she just needed to learn to accept that people get angry and say stuff they don't mean. I thought it would probably be good for her to say some things she didn't mean. It kinda drove me nuts, that she *always* meant what she said. What kind of way to communicate is that?
But I gradually learned to see it as just our problem. Nobody's fault, but if I wanted us both to be happy I was going to have to learn not to say things that I didn't seriously mean. It took a lot of effort. And, since I didn't get a lot of practice with it, many years. But I think I'm pretty good about it now.
This sounds familiar, Dale, and I thank you for saying it. It's helpful to hear this - I'm a lot like Martha.
me too dale. thank you for this. i suppose in anger, just as in anywhere else right words and right actions still stand. I don't thing there is any excuse to shout at someone you love. It hurts. thank you for being so honest about this. We are really working on it. I so hope it can change. Alot of it is just a family pattern.
We should reread the book on destructive emotions by the dalai lama and daniel goldman. It is something that fascinates me. Obviously being able not to make anger wrong is one important thing but what you do with it entirely another.
This is really interesting, everyone, thank you. I don't get a lot of practice with this, as for a long time I have lived without close relationships. But on the one hand that doesn't absolve me from reflecting on why I found close relationships so painful that I allowed this to happen to my life. And on the other, I do still of course get angry occasionally. I went through a phase, I think, of feeling that expressing emotions - however nastily - was always better than not expressing them. Took a long time, and a knowledge of buddhist ideas I guess, to come around to thinking that what you say, even in anger, does matter and once you've said it you've given it a reality out there in the world. What Dale described is really the heart of working on relationship, I think. Whilst 'stepping back' and pausing before reacting is hugely important and makes a huge difference, I wouldn't ever mean to say that that replaces honest communication - you need both.
I'm noticing (since noticing my feelings is my practice at the moment) that while I'm typing this I feel very upset just thinking about it - even after all these years of not being in this situation.
So, thank you all for sharing what is so hard to share, to face up to, even to think about.
[[Jean]]
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